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Showing posts with label Interrogation. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Interrogation. Show all posts

Sunday, August 3, 2014

The All-important Bathroom Break - How to Get Your Villain to 'Fess Up: Info for Writers with Sgt Pacifico



A roll of toilet paper attached to the wall of...
. (Photo credit: Wikipedia)
Fiona - 
Well Sgt Pacifico, are you ready to finish the last in our interrogation series? The last time we chatted you were headed to the bathroom ...

Sgt. Pacifico - 
Yes indeed...the bathroom break! So remember back in the beginning when we talked about the constitution a little?

Fiona - 

Yup (Miranda Warnings and the 5th and 6th amendments LINK)

Sgt. Pacifico - 
There is another one called the 14th amendment which addresses coercive things cops may do intentionally or unintentionally that can render an interrogation illegal.

Okay, so here is the scenario. The detectives did a great job building rapport. They conducted a proper interview, learning much from the suspect about his body language and truth-telling style (Those things we spoke about earlier LINK). Now we turn into the interrogation part where we start getting him on the fence, and he exclaims, "I really gotta pee! I gotta go to the bathroom. I can't think anymore, and I can't hold it!" Well, how do we know if this is true or not. And it could be true, we gave him fries and a soda, he may actually have to go.

Fiona - 
Some people have small bladders

Sgt. Pacifico -
If we don't stop and give him a break, our interrogation afterward could - not automatically and always, but could - be determined to be coercive in nature because the man confessed so he could avoid soiling himself. Some may find this acceptable, while others find it ridiculous. It doesn't ever matter what you think. Remember, it is what the judge will rule.

But I digress. In order to avoid this issue, we take a bathroom break. We don't even invite him to go; we just shuttle him there. "Well, guys, I think this is a good place to take a break," the detective says. "I gotta use the head. Come on I'll show you where its at," says the detective to the suspect.

Fiona -
Wait. They pee side by side - that just seems... wrong.

Sgt. Pacifico - 
No. Actually, we take the suspect to the secure bathroom, essentially a small observation cell with a toilet, (a small block wall obscures view of the actual commode). Then we go off and use the employee washroom. We leave him in there with his thoughts, and we are free to roam about our office without the fear of him running away because he is locked in the room. Serves those two purposes wonderfully.

However, if he is a non-custodial interview, we can't lock him in there. We have to walk him back into the interview room and leave a guard nearby to ensure he doesn't wonder about in confidential areas, but not seem like he is under guard. Otherwise, it becomes custodial. Remember that part from earlier?

Fiona - 
Yup.   (LINK)

Sgt. Pacifico - 
What we do once the suspect is settled either in the obs room or back in the interview room is gather together in our sergeant's office and go over what we just learned.

The sergeant, and really everyone in homicide who isn't critically busy, will be watching the interview and interrogation. Everyone wants the detectives to succeed, and this is game time. There may be some jabs and jokes here and there, but it's usually pretty serious. There will be no messing around that causes any interruption in the flow of the detectives or the case.

We discuss what we saw and heard. How did he look when he talked about certain aspects of the story? Did he look direct or away? Did his eyes shift differently? Did his body language change dramatically at certain points? How was his tone, tenor, volume and pitch when we changed from topic to topic getting more and more into the story? Did he seem more nervous or more relaxed? What was an obvious lie, what wasn't? What are we going to spend our time on as a theme to get him to give up the like and confess the truth? What roles are we going to play going back into the room?

Fiona -
Do you use computer software to track micro-expressions?
Also, do you use voice analysis to check for pitch?

Sgt. Pacifico  -
We didn't use any software for micro-expressions. None existed at the time, or at least not at the level of the local police agency. Maybe some of alphabets were using it but not us locals. Voice stress analysis was not considered all that reliable. Besides, when you are good at this, it's way better to be there in the moment, knowing what you are doing. It's like an artist with a blank canvas. A true artist can paint the picture without using paint-by-numbers.
You develop a 6th sense

Fiona - 
So, you've huddled up...

Sgt. Pacifico -
We have all agreed on what we think of this guy and his story. We've also agreed on how we are going to approach him to confront his story. Now its time to head in. For. One. Last. Time. 

You see, the reason for the bathroom break is coming into focus. We legitimately all probably needed one anyway, but now when we get in there and into the next phase and start making him sweat, and he pulls out the bathroom card, we can say no. We can say right there on the video, which is all time-stamped, "You just went 20 minutes ago. Stop making excuses for not telling the truth and ......" We can say this and not worry about our tactics being considered coercive. 

In the time we have had him, we fed him, gave him drink, allowed him to smoke, and let him use the facilities, all the while treating him nicely. Kinda hard to call us mean ole' detectives who berated defense counsel clients into submission through our horrible tactics.

Fiona - 
I know you're running through a thought process here, but could you take a moment to list the 14th amendment no-nos?

Sgt. Pacifico - 
Sure, I'll list them from some obvious ones to the not so obvious. 
* Hitting or striking a suspect probably shoots right to the top. 
   (It doesn't work anyway. A detective so unskilled that he resorts
    to hitting a suspect is probably also leading the statement, and
    forcing the suspect to say what he wants anyway. It's just plain
    garbage!) 
* Sleep deprivation caused by rotating fresh detectives for endless
    hours. 
* Multiple detectives shouting and crowding like drill instructors in
   the military. 
* Threats are up pretty high but are the ones the television writers
   use the most and probably don't know are coercive and
   ridiculously illegal. It's also where cops learn to say
   these things. For example, "If you don't tell me what I need to
   know, I'll just book you until you can make bail, put you in the
   cell tank with our worst criminals, and see if you want to tell me
   something after they've had a go around with you. How much do
   you weigh? A buck-fifty? Let's see if you can make it through the
   night." Believe it or not, real cops have said these things and
   they're strait from badly written movies and books.
* Promises is right up there with threats. If I promise leniency or to
   do some favor, then I have entered a quid pro quo that can rule
   the confession illegal. He only confessed for the deal or the
   promise made. This is so prevalent in the movies and
   television. Yet in reality, cops have no authority over charges
   and leniency; that's the prosecutor's office who has that power.
   The suspect in the room ask for deals, thinking the cops
   can make those deals happen like in the movies. It is a real dance
   in there. It's very stressful to essentially tell the guy there are no
   deals. Stop watching television and this is how the real world
   works. But doing it with care. I have on occasion, said, "Dude,
   you watch way too much TV. That shit only happens in your 
   living room. In here, there are no deals made by cops. That ain't
   the law and this isn't television." Feel free to use that line if you
   want.
Then there is withholding food, water, bathroom. 

Fiona - 
Very interesting.
Thank you.
So there's a technique that could be deemed coercive, I guess, where the detective will not allow the suspect to deny the crime...

Do you know what I'm talking about?

Sgt. Pacifico - 
Yes, but that's not coercive, and that's what we indeed do. let me explain.


The hardest thing for new detectives to do for some reason is make a direct accusation. I don't know why that is, but even in interrogation class during mock interrogations they skip over this part. 

What we do when we walk back into the room for the first time after the break is make a strong, affirmative, confrontational accusation. "John, we have completed our investigation. What we have here (pointing to the newly brought in stack of reports and DVDs) is weeks worth of non-stop investigating. Our investigation clearly points to you! You, John, are the one who killed your neighbor!" And then pause....

Interestingly, that short pause you think would give the suspect the appropriate time to deny. The innocent almost always start denying right away. Wanna know how often, loudly and crazily the guilty suspects deny?

Fiona - 
Yup.

Sgt. Pacifico - 
Almost never. Guilty suspects hardly every say anything and make those, "Hmph. Pfft. Sheesh. Yeah right..." 

That's been my experience most of the time. Or the guilty ones start asking questions like, "Why would I do that? I would never do that!" Now LISTEN to what he ACTUALLY said. "Why WOULD I do that?" Future tense and not a denial of the past act. "I WOULD never do that." Also a future tense and not a denial of the past act. A real denial sounds like this, "I did not kill my neighbor. I didn't do it."

Fiona - 
I didn't, I swear!

The use of the formal "did not" and "neighbor" instead of a name are not distancing (lying) techniques in your experience?

Sgt. Pacifico - 
Oh sure, there is far more to it than what I'm giving you here. In this particular area, we spend several hours if not the better part of an entire day in interrogation school. Actually, this notion of what was said and how it was said is talked about all week.

So directly on the heels of making a pointed and direct accusation that the person killed the victim, and without saying, "You are the one who shot, strangled and suffocated the victim" because this is leading. We get the hows and whys later.

Fiona - 
The fine line of coercion here being - "Our documentation points to you." v. "You stabbed Mrs. Cranach!"

Sgt. Pacifico - 
Well, the point is that we make a specific accusation. 

"You Dave, killed your wife! There was no mystery intruder. We know exactly what happened now and have ruled out all other suspects other than you!"

Fiona - 
Okay - I think I have it. You're still saying that you have drawn a conclusion based on documented findings.

Wow, you have to be really on your toes about what pops out of your mouth. Being that vigilant must be mentally exhausting.


Sgt. Pacifico - 
Yes, it can be mentally exhausting, but only afterward. My very last case I ever worked as an active detective was coincidentally one of my most marathon interrogations. I interrogated five equally guilty suspects in a robbery-homicide where they all repeatedly beat their "friend" to death. It took all day from morning until night, one after another. I was never tired during the process. We had already been up two days straight before so with some naps here and there, I was essentially going on 36 hours with little to no sleep. During the interrogations I was wide awake. But after the adrenaline wore off, I couldn't drive home. I had to stop once to sleep for like an hour on the side of the road because I was asleep at the wheel.

Fiona - 
They need a recovery room with a cot for the interrogators.

Sgt. Pacifico - 
We actually have a bunk room. I thought I'd make it home. I was fine until I got into the quiet comfortable car with no more noise, interaction, or need for my brain to function. It turned off like a switch.

Fiona - 
I'm glad you took a rest break and got home safe.
Okay, a while back, I broke into your sequencing for your final brow-beating - er, I mean - stage of the interrogation.

Sgt. Pacifico - 
(Continuing as the interrogator) "Now Dave, (he not yet having said a word of denial other than to feign some disgust at being accused) what I want to talk to you about is the "why." It seems pretty clear to me, based on what we've talked about, that you are a pretty good guy. But I think something happened that day you wish you could take back. Something snapped maybe? Maybe all the stresses in your life that we talked about (Here SPORTS AND HORSES - LINK) earlier were just too much for you to handle today. You came in and saw you wife with another new expensive item you can't afford. It drove you into a rage you couldn't control. I get it..."


At this point, or after many attempts at points like this, we call THEMES, the suspect will start to crumble and stop any and all denials - if any existed - and really hone in on what we are saying. Eventually, they will chose a theme. They lie and make some sort of admission.

Fiona -
What are some of the typical themes?

Sgt. Pacifico -
Well, we can totally lie and bluff! We make accusations to innocent people who wind up being great witnesses because once they think we think they are the suspect - and maybe we had it wrong, they tell us what we need to know. Also, sometimes we are led astray. We make an accusation, and the subject flatly denies it - strongly, assertively, never waivers, and continues down a path of innocent behaviors. We can make the determination they are not our suspect and clear them from the case. I've cleared falsely accused thieves and child molesters who were vindictively accused by friends and ex-lovers of wrong doing. These tactics work to prove innocence as well as determining guilt.

Fiona - 
Oh good.

Can you tell me some innocent behaviors?

Sgt. Pacifico - 
Innocent people don't make excuses. They don't get nervous, they get angry at false accusations. The anger remains with the continued accusation. Fake anger, put on by guilty people changes to something else because they forget to pretend to be angry.


Guilty people try to stall and avoid answering questions and find other topics to try and talk about it. They try and create physical space distance to "run away." 

Innocent people are adamant, clear spoken, forceful in their convictions, look you in the eye. Get loud and may even be somewhat rude when they weren't before hand. Because the continued accusations of the innocent makes you a jerk, the continued accusations of the guilty makes you a guy doing your job. 

The themes come from the discussions in the interview. The phrase I keep repeating throughout the interrogation school I teach cops is this, "If you don't conduct a proper rapport and interview, how are you going to know what to talk about during the interrogation?" 

Bottom line, we talk in the interrogation until they decide that they know this is not going away, that they are caught, and the evidence has them boxed in. Then they start making micro-admissions to see how much trouble they are in or how they can minimize the trouble they're in.

Fiona - 
Once they admit to a crime, do you make them write it out and sign? Or is it okay just to do it on the video?


Sgt. Pacifico - 
Once they confess, the video and audio is all that we need. However, sometimes they want to write an apology letter to the family of the victims, which of course is a written confession. So we let them do that and put a copy on records, of course. 

Well that's really it, I guess for what we can do in this limited time and space. Remember, this is a 40-hour course for basic interviewing and interrogation with another 40 hours of advanced interviewing, forensic handwriting analysis, polygraph is another 80-hour mini-school, and the list goes on. 

We have only touched on some of the basic ideas and tactics. If your readers want to learn more, they should really attend my Writers Homicide School. Sadly, we are not having anymore in 2014. From this point forward we are going to only host one annual WHS per year. It will be a big blow out event in Las Vegas June 6-7. 2015. Then there may be another one in Australia. I've been invited there, and we are working out some details now. 

Also, any writer anytime can sign up for a private consultation to get the specific answers they need regarding interviews and interrogation or ANY aspect of police work they need. They simply go to www.crimewritersconsultations.com and sign up for a private consultation.

Welcome
www.crimewritersconsultations.com

Fiona - 

 Sgt. - thank you so much for going the extra mile with me and finishing out the series of interviews. 


Thank you so much for stopping by. And thank you for your support. When you buy my books, you make it possible for me to continue to bring you helpful articles and keep ThrillWriting free and accessible to all.


Sunday, June 1, 2014

How to Get Your Villain to Confess His Crimes - Info for Writers w/Sgt. Pacifico



ThrillWriting welcomes back Sgt Derek Pacifico from Homicide School for Writers. Today, we are taking the next step in interrogations: the questions.


image found on Facebook



If you need to know the difference between an interview and an interrogation go HERE

If you need to build rapport before you start the questioning phase go HERE

Fiona - 
Sgt. Pacifico I would like to know what the TV shows, movies, and books are getting wrong in terms of the questioning phase. Can we talk about that aspect of the interview/interrogation?

Sgt. Pacifico -

Sgt. Derek Pacifico - Writers' Homicide School
Most people think interviewing is asking questions.

Most cops make this mistake too. Why? Because they've seen a thousand interviews done by television cops for years before they were old enough to become a cop themselves. 

Real interviewing requires a lot less talking from the cops then you'd think or expect. When we ask questions, we are requesting an answer to the question. 
* But what if we are asking the wrong question? 
* What if we don't know that there is a hidden topic
   to even ask about? 
* What is the suspect is expecting the questions and has
    the answers quite rehearsed? 

The most valuable asset to interviewing is listening skills. The best thing, I tell rookie detectives, that they can do, is SHUT THE HELL UP! That's right, quit talking. Now this is of course after the rapport building stage when we have been chatting about "sports and horses" and everyone is all friendly-like. Now that it's time to get him/her to talk about the event we are investigating, we need to go after narrative responses. 

The method for doing that - pay attention those of you who interview in a human resources job, are a supervisor who needs to get to the bottom of the problem, or a parent trying to figure out which of your kids broke the vase - is to simply start with this: "So, tell me what happened." This will force the person into speaking in their language in a narrative format. 

Not answering direct questions with a yes or no allows the investigator to compare the speech pattern to how they were speaking just moments ago about their favorite food, best movie they've seen or what ever it was during sports and horses.

Fiona - 
Shutting the hell up is very difficult - I know this as a counselor. When there is tension in the air, our socialization is to fill the void. I imagine the longer an officer practices this technique, the more comfortable she is in allowing the person being questioned to sit in discomfort.

Sgt. Pacifico - 
Absolutely. It is a practiced skill to "actively listen." It's not simply sitting there looking bored and confused. It's the act of leaning in with an engaged and smiling look, nods and gestures to allow the person to feel comfortable to keep speaking.

Fiona - 
That level of attention must be exhausting.

Sgt. Pacifico - 
Some of my interviews have lasted six hours and yes when completed, I'm first exhilarated to have gotten the confession, but then when the high falls off, I'm spent. 

Actually, my last stint as a full time homicide detective, I interrogated 5 suspects in a row for the better part of an entire day. I could barely drive home after we got through with the booking process. 
English: Star Trek style 3D chess board
 3D chess board (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

Most police work, including street interviews is checkers. Detective work is chess. Sometimes, in some cases, a homicide interrogation is like playing 3D chess. For those of you who know what 3D chess is, you know what a mental workout it is.



Fiona - 
One is always trying to out maneuver the opponent. So, open ended questions versus closed ended questions - tell me about leading questions.

Sgt. Pacifico - 
Leading questions are BAD! Very BAD! Extremely BAD! Yet, it's all that I see on television and movies, and the reason why real cops don't like most shows that claim authenticity. 

Here is why. 

If I have not said anything about the crime at all, and we've only spoken about sports and horses, now during the actual interview, I ask you to tell me what happened, and you say you got a ride to the party in your friends blue Mustang, you are introducing that information into the story. The fact that I knew this from a video or previous testimony only bolsters the fact you are thus far being honest. If however you had lied and said a red Camaro, I would know the lie. BUT, if If asked you, "Did you get a ride in your friend's blue Mustang?" You would know I know and wouldn't try to lie. 

You see, I don't want the suspect to know what I know so they don't know what to lie about and when. If I lead them with a piece of evidence, I'm essentially putting words in their mouths and with enough of it, I can lose an interview legally for being coercive. Or the defense will simply argue to the jury that the defendant didn't admit to anything, he only agreed with the detectives version. But that can't happen if I don't lead and don't' include any info until he has admitted it.

Fiona - 
And you're trying to catch them lying to you? As in you want to know if they are honest and you can believe their statements on the whole? (The guy could be color blind, just sayin'.)

Sgt. Pacifico - 
Well if a guy is color blind, that will come up, and that's not the issue. But yes we are always testing the honesty, even the confession. 


We don't want false confessions. We don't want some poor kid to come in with a prepped story and being forced from his gang to admit to a crime he didn't commit because he is young and first timer, taking the blame for a seasoned and career criminal. If the guy in the room was the one who did it, his version will match the evidence in every detail. If it doesn't then we start to suspect he is a patsy. It's happened. 

We want the truth and real resolution. I tell the guy in the room, "Listen, I get paid by the hour not whether I make an arrest or not. There are no bonuses for arrests and no penalties for not making one. I'm after the truth and resolution to the case. That's it."

Fiona - 


What happens to that kid if his story didn't wash, you send him back on the street, and the gang thinks he didn't do his job?

Sgt Pacifico - 
It's a Rat!!
It's a Rat!! (Photo credit: Wikipedia)
Yeah, we just toss him back out there with a pound of cheese and say, "Thanks rat!" It's usually not quite as dramatic maybe as I inferred. Often, the false confessor is indeed involved in the crime but may not be the main player. So he is going down for lesser included crimes or accessory, but we go after the main player. But yeah, if you are in a gang and rat on the other guy, which they almost always do, there are bound to be repercussions when everyone is in the jail together.

Fiona - 
YIPES!

Sgt. Pacifico - 
It's funny from my perspective that the gangbangers still to this day think they are bold and brave, and believe that they nor anyone else would every tell on them. Well how do you think I got your name, address and started my investigation in the first place? From your brother gang members. Outsiders don't know who the bad guys are. The shop keep and the taxpaying neighbors don't know who did it. Gang members rat. Everyday, all the time. They just tell themselves they don't.

Fiona - 
What time frame seems the most reliable for having a clear memory? For example if I speak to someone the day after I get good info, but if I wait .... then I get garbage


Sgt. Pacifico - 
There are some studies I've read, but can not cite since they were years ago and I didn't keep them, that say immediately after a traumatic or exciting event is NOT the best time to do the interview. But for understandable reasons, its really the only time we will get quick information to find a suspect and/or be able to keep witnesses around, e.g. car crash witnesses, bank robbery witnesses, etc. Once the adrenaline has worn off and they have had a chance to process the information they are often better. In murders and other serious crimes,, we have commonly called witnesses back the next day and done a whole complete interview again, usually getting a much richer in detail set of facts.

Fiona - 
In the interview what is the criminal's mind set?

Sgt Pacifico - 
With suspects, it goes in one of two primary ways. 
* They "don't know nuthin' bout' nuthin!" and the interview ends
   pretty quickly and then goes into the next phase. 
* The suspect tells a version of the story he knows he can't get
   away from but excludes himself from the bad thing.

There are five phases in an interrogation/interview
* The First phase if you recall is interview prep.
* The second phase was rapport building.
* The third phase is the interview (which can last 10 seconds or
    multiple hours). 
* The fourth phase is "the break"
* The fifth and final phase is the interrogation.

Fiona - 
Ah - so now I know what we'll talk about next month.

Sgt. Pacifico - 
The break is right after the interview be it a short or long one. The break is caused by some ruse, I always used needing to go to the bathroom as the excuse - which more often than not was indeed true. During the break we take the suspect to the bathroom, allow him to get a drink from the fountain if he wants and if he smokes a (final) cigarette. Then he goes back into the room. We detectives go and huddle up and talk with our peers and the sergeant and make a game plan for the interrogation - which we will get into more detail next time.

Fiona - 
Do you often ask people to sketch, or act out an event? Have you ever used hypnosis to help a witness remember a crime or to allow a suspect to try to remember some detail that would exonerate them?

Sgt. Pacifico - 
Yes we do ask them to sketch. It has multiple purposes and begets various helpful responses. When they are lying about their actions and we ask them to sketch it, the drawing is usually very confusing because demonstrating it on paper is a lot more defining that just trying to double speak and dance verbally around the specifics in an attempt to confuse the interrogator. Sometimes the sketch can be the trigger for a liar to start confessing as they see the futility in how their ridiculous story sounds. But when they are telling the truth, sketches drawn by the suspect that match crime scene photos we took weeks earlier are magic in court!

Fiona - 
How does this change if they lawyered up?

Sgt. Pacifico - 
If a suspect, at any time requests a lawyer, all questions stop and we are done. Hardly ever happened to me. Cops are stupid donut eating jocks who couldn't make it in pro-ball. Crooks are clever, conniving thieves who can surely buffalo the jerk with the badge in the room. At least that's what they think. I don't mind it. Kind of Columbo-like.

Fiona - 
OK but say they did and now the lawyer is in there with the questioning - do they usually allow that or just say no?

Sgt. Pacifico - 
First, the suspect may request a lawyer, but on high average, he ain't got one he can call. The interview ceases and we will decide based on our case and timing whether or not arresting and booking the suspect is the proper thing to do. Sometimes we aren't successful with an interrogation of a guy we KNOW did it, but don't have enough information so we release him. Murder warrants can be obtained and plane tickets purchased if he fleas.

Fiona - 
I want to make sure we have time for you to talk about Homicide School.What classes are you teaching? What do participants get to try themselves?

Sgt. Pacifico - 
June 9-10 I will be in LAS VEGAS putting on my WRITERS HOMICIDE SCHOOL. We are at the D Las Vegas, downtown's newest and hippest attraction. Sunday the 8th, we are having a private reception in the VUE bar. Monday morning, we get going at 9am - 3pm with open Q&A from 3-4pm. 

Then Monday night we are going as a group to the award winning "Marriage Can Be Murder" dinner show! There are still seats available! Please checkout THIS LINK to buy your tickets.

Fiona- 
I've read reviews - your students love you.

Sgt. Pacifico - 
I love speaking to writers, they come with an open heart and mind, wanting to be taught something new. They are excited about some of the things I might find routine and it makes it so much fun to watch them get all excited about the new info!

I start the class with some basic information about police work in general, crime codes and some other myth-breaking information and then we delve right into crime scene investigation, case reviews, blood spatter interpretation and exercises, interview and interrogation and stories, stories, stories!

Fiona - 
I love stories. Share a quick one then I know you need to run.

Sgt. Pacifico - 
Sure, here is one about a FEMALE murder suspect! 

This woman, her hubby and teen-aged daughter lived out in the desert area of our county. Dirt lot with a dirt driveway from a dirt road. Pavement was hundreds of yards away if not more. That's important because she calls 911 in the morning to report her husband was the victim of an overnight intruder style burglary/homicide. 

Only she didn't realize that the rains from three days prior had completely washed the desert tracks clean and the only shoe and tire tracks within a thousand yards of her residence where her's, hubbie's and teen-ager's. Oh, and she forgot to have any forced entry. Oh, and she forgot to have stuff stolen. Oh, and she forgot to have a reason why he is dead yet she and teenager were asleep in the bedroom down the hall, and they were unharmed. Oh, and she forgot to destroy the credit card receipts her hubby was laying on showing the incredible gambling debt she had incurred. 

She kept her cool and never confessed and actually fled to Georgia for a few weeks when we weren't looking. Once we had enough evidence, we went and got her. She is doing life in prison...

Fiona - 
YAY! On that happy note, we thank you for your time and expertise. 



Thank you so much for stopping by. And thank you for your support. When you buy my books, you make it possible for me to continue to bring you helpful articles and keep ThrillWriting free and accessible to all.



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